Curse

Tark Alkerk · Oct 09, 2006, 01:40 PM // 13:40

well in the nightfall preview event, tryian and canthan charrecters also had 3 slots next to there face just like nightfall chars.

Snowman · Oct 09, 2006, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tark Alkerk

well in the nightfall preview event, tryian and canthan charrecters also had 3 slots next to there face just like nightfall chars.

But Heroes where 'character' specific, not account based.

So I would assume that you would have to take your factions/prophecies character to Nightfall to collect these heroes?

And if this IS the case then maybe PVP characters wouldnt have access to them at all, meaning you would have to use PvE Characters for pvp...

hmmm..

Solar Light · Oct 09, 2006, 04:45 PM // 16:45

We might get PVP Heros, standardized ones, perhaps even setting them up via pvp creation windows?

Clawdius_Talonious · Oct 09, 2006, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solar Light

We might get PVP Heros, standardized ones, perhaps even setting them up via pvp creation windows?

I read somewhere, mention of "unlocking" heros, I think that we -MAY- be able to do it as you describe, after you've unlocked the heros in a PVE account?

Omega X · Oct 09, 2006, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paperfly

Every thread on hero-related topics so far has had multiple players stating they'll stop PuGging entirely. I also think you're underestimating the number of people whose skill level is such that they can't finish the harder missions with henchies but can quite easily do so with heroes.

People who said that they will stop PuGging entirely are most likely already using henches. Heroes are just a better option.

A lot of other people in those thread always talk about how they hate Heroes and it isn't an option for them because "I get online to play with others". I honestly can't see how heroes will affect them to begin with. They won't use heroes/henches, so they shouldn't have to say anything about them. Or maybe they are worried that they will get stuck with the scum players hero/hench users despise so much.

Darksun · Oct 09, 2006, 08:30 PM // 20:30

HO-LEE- SHNIKEYS!@
this is the best news ever... No more waiting for high & mighty AFK RAge quitter Monks! Now they can pound sand!

Thallandor · Oct 10, 2006, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omega X

People who said that they will stop PuGging entirely are most likely already using henches. Heroes are just a better option.

A lot of other people in those thread always talk about how they hate Heroes and it isn't an option for them because "I get online to play with others". I honestly can't see how heroes will affect them to begin with. They won't use heroes/henches, so they shouldn't have to say anything about them. Or maybe they are worried that they will get stuck with the scum players hero/hench users despise so much.

Isnt it great. Experienced Players who are serious on playing and enjoying the game can do so now with ease in NF with another friend/guildie and their heros/hench. While the Others (ragequiters, Afkers, loud mouths, Airheads, leechers, Aholes, bots, gold farmers, scammers and "Insert those i have missed") can finally group amoung themselves for a change.

This, truthly is the best of all worlds.

Edit for spelling and effect.

kazjun · Oct 10, 2006, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Heroes won't affect my rate of pug use. I prefer to do missions with people,
since real humans are far more capable than buffed henches, well, in most cases anyway. Questing I tend to do with henches, so having heroes won't change that at all.

So having heroes=good

Plus for all those complaining about having heroes, don't take them. If you can't get in a party because they're taking heroes, they probably wouldn't have taken you anyway. And what about places where there are just no people? Depending on time, some missions have no one there, so you'd have been henching anyway. At least now you can get good henches. You ever tried doing some of the bonuses for the later missions? No one wants them and you end up just henching it. Heroes in Cantha and Tyria? FTW for sure.

Spirit Of Azrael · Oct 10, 2006, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Thank you ANet. I love you.

fleshvirus · Oct 10, 2006, 04:30 AM // 04:30

This is gona make many things Good or rather very bad.

Paperfly · Oct 10, 2006, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Actually it was stated that you would have "more" dialogue options in PC Gamer, which translates to at least some honest to goodness dialogue trees

Yeah, we saw a little bit of that in the preview (e.g. the trial). Still, it's not likely that we'll see the depth you'd get from a proper single-player RPG. Though of course if they pull off some Planescape: Torment level stuff while preserving the Guild Wars format I will be amongst the first begging the Vatican to elevate 'em to sainthood.

Quote:

People who said that they will stop PuGging entirely are most likely already using henches.

Er, that's a bit self-contradictory. They can't stop PuGging if they're not doing so at the moment... And there's a reason why I brought up the consideration that, because heroes are so much more powerful than henchies, there's a fair proportion of the population that can finish the game with one but not the other*.

Quote:

While I do see your point, if I were in your position, I think I'd still rather play alone than with people who are only playing with me because they have no other choice.

With the new heroes, people who want to play with others can, and those who don't can play the way they want, too. The only thing the more social players are loosing is something they should never really have had in the first place; unhappy companions.

I think you can easily overstate people-in-general's dislike of PuGs. I also strongly suspect that the problem isn't going to be so much all the people going "yay, I can finally get away from those morons!" as it is the casual crowd for whom packing heroes is going to be so much more convenient than assembling a party.

At the moment there are no intrinsic rewards to taking humans along beyond the social factor, and nine times out of ten taking heroes will net an effective increase in your team's power - even with a straightforward and non-optimised build - just because you can choose exactly what class and role to fill the slot with. Throw in the fact that (from the preview) heroes are mandatory in some missions, and it adds up to a message from ANet re PuGging that I'm not too happy to hear.

Can I bring some attention back to my other earlier analogy? An "infinite health" option would very quickly ruin the game. Sure, you'd have a couple of weeks during which everyone would run around naked through Snake Dance**, but after that the gameplay would be cheapened into meaninglessness and everyone would leave out of boredom.

Now, this isn't an infinite health option, but it is a "halve the difficulty" option for the older campaigns (presuming that Nightfall will be balanced with hero use in mind).

Quote:

This is gona make many things Good or rather very bad.

Assuming I'm interpreting this statement correctly, I think I agree.

Look, I'm going to have some fun playing with heroes. In fact, if you search around you'll see I've posted on threads about equipping them, builds and strategies. However, I'm genuinely worried about the repercussions on the game's core design.

*Yes, I can hench through anything (if they're available). You may well be able to too. Don't forget that being on a message board about the game automatically ranks you amongst the higher tier of players!
**I'm currently god-mode-ing my way through Warcraft 3 just to quickly catch the plotline and cinematics... But I have no illusions as to what its going to do to my perception of the gameplay (so it's a good thing I'm not a huge fan of RTSses in the first place!).

Oven · Oct 10, 2006, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Now, I'm sure the issue regarding will people still PuG has been discussed to death in this thread. What I would like to bring up is the issue with monks. I kinda started my own monk a few days backbecause I'm sick of failing to get into groups with my mesmer. This is probably the only reason I started a monk. I am pretty sure there are others out there who are like me. My question is this: Will human monks still be a valuable asset to any PvE team now that you can get your own customizable, 'will do everything I tell him to' hero monk? Will the demand for human monks still be as high as it is today?

Snowman · Oct 10, 2006, 11:48 AM // 11:48

um, about the PuG or not to PuG debate..

Doesnt this kinda depend on HOW difficult the missions will be?

you maybe able to move them control them set their skills and activate those skills.. but they are still NPC's at the end of the day.. you cant tell them to pick-up stuff, you cant tell them to press levers and switches..

What if there are missions where you need players to activate switches simultaniously?..

Its obvious that these Heroes are there to help us.. but that only tells me that the missions are going to be extremly challenging and real players are still going to be very much needed!

Kais Unduli · Oct 10, 2006, 12:14 PM // 12:14

I'll still find myself some pugs, but if I fail a mission once or twice because of some stupid humans, then I'll be more inclined to take my heroes. Especially if I have a friend or two to come along. We can tailor our heroes to the needs of the mission, and will be able to control them instead of watching the same retarded tank aggro everything.

Tartagan · Oct 10, 2006, 12:27 PM // 12:27

I don't think Heros 'party are the end of the PUGs. IMO it'll be even easier to PuG with them.

At the moment you can't PuG if you don't have 8 players (more or less, try to pick a hench and you have 3 rage quit ^^), with the heros systeme even with 2 players the missions will be fun and doable.

"LF duo with heros !" Remember it, it'll will become very popular after the 27th October ^^.

Solar_Takfar · Oct 10, 2006, 05:49 PM // 17:49

mm. I play most missions with human groups, and I sincerely don't see the incredible, amazing, soul-redeeming, "social value" in PuGing. 90% of the times, all people will say is the "LFG" before the mission, check builds, start, and then play thru, communicating through no more than energy pings, target calls and radar sketches (sometimes not even that), and then "GG" and "GJ" after the mission. and then 9,9% of the remaining times, people will bitch about someone who's leeching or has quit. 0,1% of the time people might make some comment on anything else, make a joke or say something that's not a game cypher. If you want a conversation with some random person, you'd be about a thousand times better off hanging out in the local bar than trying to have one with a GW PuG.

Either way, I don't think forcing people to play with bad henches (as in, using inappropriate skills in inappropriate ways) as the only alternative to playing with humans is the right way to save this dubious "social value". For one, the guilds and friends system already allows for the opportunity to know people and create lasting connections with them. But if Anet wants to increase the sociability in the game, they should try ADDING new features, not restricting them (as would be the case if heroes were restricted).

How could this be done? I'm no game designer and no psychologist, but my suggestions would be something similar to the in-game events, only happening more often and giving incentive to human contact, rather than title- or token-grinding. Things like, um, a joke contest, or group dance contest, in which spectators vote for whom they think should be the winner. or some kind of scavenger hunt in which a group of players have to effectively talk and coordinate their actions to win. Or it could be something entirely non-competitive: new emotes, customizable town-only clothing (which doesn't require inventory slots), new town-only (as in, not affecting actual gameplay) functions (ie. mesmers can design town clothes for other players, rangers can brew hallucinogenic stews, etc). Giving the players some way to interact with the town environment would be nice, too; player housing might be too much for GW's system, but maybe some way to, you know, plant trees, or make sculptures, or play songs, but temporary and completely independent of any type of grind items or titles.

All these options are alternatives to forcing players into PUGs, and would be a lot more effective in giving the game more "social value". I don't know, maybe it could be the theme for a new Sardelac Spotlight Concept ("Improving sociability in GW").

CKaz · Oct 10, 2006, 09:03 PM // 21:03

I think this is win/win

For those who already often are left to self+7 hench this will be an alternative to the very poor henchy play we've had to deal with - I've been able to hench pretty much anything but chp2 became more of an obstacle than fun - winning despite the hench, really.

This adds some fun - I capped Ride the Lightning without issue, with all henchies, without any wipes, really without a problem. But it's annoying lol.

Now I focus on efficiency and synergy rather than the limitations.
Even with Factions expanding the character roles (thanks for interrupt henchy btw) some were still sorely missed, like MM.

Honestly I was more hoping just be able to bring my other chars along and make a party (allows for deeper usage obviously with weapon swaps, armor, and storage, as well as much more personal to boot) but this certainly still is a big leg up.

So it'll be a little wierd not to control the look/feel of the hench much at all (Koss, meet Koss'

). But back to the hot topic...

So I'm in a group with my ele, I've done eternal grove, everyone wants 2 MMs, there isn't enough. Our PUG woulda had it with 1 but we had another char drop, we got very close but nope. Eventually we got the mix later... but honestly I almost called it a couple times. Necro hero? Problem solved - in a PUG of 7 + 1 hero.

Monks monks monks - monk fight!
Well who won't toy with or doesn't want the Monk hero in the mix?
I can't play my monk when I play my necro or ele or warrior... yay an option.

Assassins - even us good ones (hey I get props when I get groups and knock out the forest with henchs possibly quicker than any other lead char due to spike particularly vs dredge and mantis) get a cold shoulder. Yah guilds, etc. Part of the problem is GW is big and always getting bigger and quite frankly I'm often doing stuff others arent or don't want to (also an all skill collector). Bam I can create a pretty nasty unit and I'm halfway there and grab *1* friend for a full group, or a couple for some hero mix, or even 4 straight henchy - those that don't need as much control. I'll even PUG with mesmer/ranger/etc in same situation!

I think there is a point a lot of people miss. If you're not FOTM somewhere or been posted about (quite frankly the average player you game with might be closer to having lived in a box rather than thinking out of it) or doing something most others don't care about (like questing in SF lol, Titans, etc), this only ADDS. I was in a guild that wouldnt take my Ele to do Final Assault, but would take my MM. Pshaw, I refused. Their 3-4 fails later (some PUG mix, some mishaps I guess I dunno) it came around again and we tore it up seemlessly.

It's so much more the player - that's why you need guilds/friends, but you still run up against it there too. This system lets us keep thinking and get more out of the game while the others sink into their FOTMs. Like OMG an Ele in Tombs? omg suxor noob right? I cleared a few floors with hench, which is more than a few groups did when I joined as the MM Necro (and it wasnt for lack of minions I'll tellya right now, I brought the group back from a couple wipes :b).

Well anyways I went on a bit - hey I like this game, I'm casual hardcore.
I play hard but I don't have the time of others. I have no FOW armor on any char but otherwise done pretty much everything and I have 3 with all chp1/chp2 skills and a few more on the way.

IMO this actually ALLOWS some PUGs to happen, other options to happen. Got only a couple people in a district who can think beyond the 'blessed mix'? You got heroes, go out and get it done. 4 peeps, bring a chosen hero each. Takes awhile to get everything configured? Really hoping templates helps everyone out, and they should.

All this is even more key as we leave chapters behind - there's less peeps there to work with.

Well per usual I went long but I wanted to put my thought out there -
cheers
CKaz

Jas D · Oct 11, 2006, 02:49 AM // 02:49

I'm so excited about Nightfall.. it's giving me more hype than Factions did. It's just the leveling seems slow, and ANet decided it was going to be like leveling in Factions.. unless I'm mistaken. I'm thinking they will change it within the release.. maybe they didn't want level 20's during the WPE.

But who knows.. slow leveling really bothers me, I'm impatient.

Anyway.. back to the topic. I love this feature, and huge props to ANet for letting us do this. Things will be so much easier and absolutely more fun. The thing I don't like, is joining a group and having some stupid warrior wanting to add his mending/healing hands wammo hero added to the group. I'm sure there will be issues with this, I guess I'll just have to be picky with my groups.

Sasuke The Betrayer · Oct 11, 2006, 02:54 AM // 02:54

I enjoy slow leveling, I mean.. why not? Unless your that impatient, bring in your level 20 and do everything as a level 20. Well, with the ability for heroes to come to other campaigns might even affect farming...... imagine if we could go to UW with a necro hero while you 55'd.

Regardless, I will still join groups or just use henchies

Paperfly · Oct 11, 2006, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Quote:

Doesnt this kinda depend on HOW difficult the missions will be?

you maybe able to move them control them set their skills and activate those skills.. but they are still NPC's at the end of the day.. you cant tell them to pick-up stuff, you cant tell them to press levers and switches..

What if there are missions where you need players to activate switches simultaniously?..

I think we can pretty much guarantee that there'll be "one player stand on each switch to open the gate" type puzzles (gee, how immersive and original

). They didn't go to the trouble of making that system of positional flags for nothing!

However, I very much doubt there'll be any missions that are physically impossible to complete without a second human... Except possibly in bonus-type dungeons (like The Deep) that don't allow henchies.